Talk:Purgatory
So-called evidence shown to be lacking
"Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5:26
"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt." - Matthew 18:34
"As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny." - Luke 12:58-59
The word "accuser" (ἀντίδικος, antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Peter 5:8) who is an accuser against man (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1; Revelation 12:10), and God is the judge. If people do not adequately deal with Satan and sin in this life, they will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and won’t get out until they have satisfied their entire debt to God. This "prison" is purgatory where they will not get out until the last penny is paid.
The first quote is merely Matthew's version of the same story quoted from Luke in the third passage, which I will address momentarily.
The second quote is from the parable of the unforgiving servant, and the debt to be paid is beyond his capability: he will never get out of that prison. I think that proves too much for your case, if the penumbra of a parable is convincing at all.
There is really no reason to believe that Jesus is not talking about an earthly adversary, an earthly judge, and an earthly debt, and at least one good reason to believe that it is not allegorical: we do not settle our sin debt with Satan -- Christ "paid in full" at the cross (John 19:30 ). And even if He did not, then, as you yourself admit, our debt is to God, so while Satan can accuse us of falling short, it is not his debt to settle. So when Jesus tells us to settle with our adversary, he is not talking about Satan. And if the adversary is not Satan, then your whole argument falls apart.
"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48
Humans are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state called purgatory.
But the Bible teaches that "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6 (NASB)). No mention in either passage of any post-death transitory state of punishment.
"And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next." - Matthew 12:32
Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase "in the next" (from the Greek ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι, en to mellonti) generally refers to the afterlife (e.g., Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; 20:34-35; Ephesians 1:21). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell.
This is quite rich! Jesus says that no forgiveness will be available after death, and you interpret that to mean that there must be forgiveness after death. Do you also believe in baptism for the dead (1_Corinthians 15:29 )?
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." - 1_Corinthians 3:10-15
These verses tell us that works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is ζημιωθήσεται, zēmiōthēsetai. The root word is ζημιόω, zémioó which also refers to punishment. The construction zēmiōthēsetai is used in Exodus 21:22 and Proverbs 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew: ענש, anash meaning "punish" or "penalty"). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
This is a plain teaching; I do not see how you can twist it so. The test of fire occurs on the Day of Judgment, when "each one's work will become manifest". There is no time available or room in the text for any intermediate state other than "the Day" when we are judged.
"in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison" - 1_Peter 3:19
"For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does." - 1_Peter 4:6
These verses state that Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
The "spirits in prison" in your first quote are those "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah" (1_Peter 3:20 ), not the righteous.
The second quote referred to some dead who had had the gospel preached to them. This does not show that they are being punished, so it does nothing to support your main point.
"But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Revelation 21:27
Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word "unclean" comes from the Greek word κοινόω (koinon) which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.
I absolutely agree. But since nothing in or near that verse (or any other mentioning the "book of life") says anything about purification occurring in some kind of "heaven's waiting room", there is no support here for the existence of Purgatory, either.
Furthermore, both Jesus and Paul taught that a Christian dead on Earth is alive with Christ, not suffering for unatoned sins: "Today you shall be with me in paradise," (Luke 23:43 ) and "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ" (2_Corinthians 5:8 ). The writer of Hebrews, likewise, tells us that we enter God's rest when we complete our works (i.e., in life), not when we complete our suffering (e.g., in Purgatory or in purification during life) (Hebrews 4:10 ).
As to the church fathers you cite: I defer to them in matters that are unclear, but I don't let any leftover pagan superstitions they might have override the clear teachings of Scripture. In any case, Augustine's passage doesn't really show belief in Purgatory.
Thank you for reaffirming the absurdity of the doctrine of Purgatory. ~ "Webster" Otley (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2010 (PDT)
- I am not sure why you have to use such language as "absurd".--Tony 11:42, 28 August 2010 (PDT)
