Talk:Black hole

This article reads like any "black hole" article at any non-creation-believing source would read. Especially the line: "Astronomers suspect that supermassive black holes formed several billion years ago from gas that accumulated in the centers of the galaxies.[1]." I'm not an expert, but it seems like someone could apply some Biblical perspective somewhere, or at a minimum, call attention to the fact that believing that anything happened "several billion years ago" is a non-Biblical belief. (not doing so seems contrary to the goal of this site, no?)Student 14:46, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. However we should always present the mainstream case for a specific scientific phenomenon and then show it lacking as the only superior, unquestionable viewpoint by espousing the creationist position as well through a Biblical view. --Tony 18:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Gravity is not based on mass!

The reason photons are attracted to black holes (and black holes are attracted to photons) is because gravity is really not based on mass of an object, but the energy and momentum (both which photons have). That is a common physics misconception. About the frozen time "experiance" for the photons, the photons appearently can't experiance time, therefore saying that photons experiance frozen time is not a valid claim.--O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth and heaven! - Clark 20:37, 16 March 2014 (EDT)

And about the speed of gravity, Einstein calculated that gravity waves travel at exactly the speed of massless particles (a.k.a. the speed of light in a vaccuum). And gravity isn't a "thing", so theoretically gravity cannot "escape". By the way, Prof. Stephen Hawking came up with a new theory about the appearent horizon instead of event horizon, where radiation can escape from the black hole (that's what eventually "kills" the black holes), Hawking got this conclusion from quasars, black holes that emit very strong radiation.--O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth and heaven! - Clark 20:42, 16 March 2014 (EDT)

Particles with mass exhibit things such as energy and momentum; things without mass do not, at least not in the same way. Photons are particles with mass and are thus influenced by forces such as gravitation. Gravity is widely seen as a force, and as such would not show the same properties (such as speed) as particles with mass. If you stick with the commonly accepted model of gravity as a force, the section "Speed of Gravity" should be modified significantly, possibly eliminated. If you wish to venture into quantum field theory, a hypothetical particle called the graviton is at the core of the gravitational force. It, however, is hypothesized to be massless so while it would be a particle and could potentially "escape" a black hole, it still would not be subject to the "laws" governing particles with matter (like the photon). But if you really want to get into it, Einstein proposed that gravity was simply a phenomenon of space-time warping around a given object. The point here is not that there are naturalistic/scientific explanations for everything. Rather, it is two sides of a coin: A) if gravity is not a particle we should not speak of it as having the same properties as a particle, or B) if gravity is a particle then in accordance with the best-developed models it should not be considered as having mass and therefore should not be spoken of as having the same properties as a particle (unless there is sufficient and compelling reason to do otherwise). Either way the section should be modified. Forces of nature would not exist if God did not see a need for them; let us reconcile, to our best ability, God's laws and man's understanding of them.--Jcroper 11:42, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Thank you for replying. But by saying energy and momentum, I mean the quantum mechanical definition, not the classical definition, so a particle don't have to have mass to have momentum or energy. If photons have mass then it wouldn't be traveling at the speed of massless particles (that is, the speed of light). The speed of gravity is simply just the speed of gravitational waves through the 4-d spacetime. And gravitons can escape a black hole not because it is massless, it's because it has a closed string, giving it the ability to get out of our membrane and into the 11 dimentional spacetime.--O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth and heaven! - Clark 19:09, 19 May 2014 (EDT)