Talk:Patrick of Ireland

We will not by using "Saint" designations for page titles on biographies. --Ashcraft - (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't change the name of the article itself, rather I used the name "Saint Patrick" at the beginning of the article since Patrick is more commonly known as "Saint Patrick" and it would be an all inclusive title that many earlier Christian leaders possess. For instance, if you were to create an article about a well known Creationist who is a Doctor, you would begin the article as "Dr. John Doe", rather than just "John Doe". That was my reasoning. Is there still a problem with doing that? - CelticCreationist 18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Understood - but the article was just changed yesterday from beginning with "Saint Patrick" to "Patrick of Ireland". Before reversing an administrative edit, make sure to state your case first and obtain expressed approval. While I agree that some people such as Patrick and Nicholas are better known by their Saint titles, the reason for that is mostly due to due to secularized holidays which have made their names household items.

We havent been using titles generally speaking to begin biographies (Dr., Pastor, etc). You may find an exception to this convention here or there, but most begin simply with their full name (i.e. David Russell Humphreys or Steven A. Austin). But there are more specific reasons for avoiding the use of the saint as a title. The meaning of the word varies greatly among denominations, and the use of "Saint" as a title carries with it a veneration that many denominations argue strongly against.

Unfortunately, people have a bad habit of elevating the perceived level of holiness of their leaders without the ability of knowing their hearts. Titles are also used by many as a form of self-exaltation. Jesus specifically warned against such things. The use of "Pastor" as a title also holds the same meaning to many (exaltation / veneration), therefore, I feel the use of titles that have that potential should be avoided.

"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. Matthew 23:5-12

You might want to think about creating an article on saint describing its various meanings. And feel free to make your case further. Such decisions/conventions are always subject to possible revision.

--Ashcraft - (talk) 21:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• I see, that is understandable. Perhaps, just using titles such as "Saint Patrick", "Saint Nicholas", etc. could be restricted to the top part & titles in the Saint infobox that I created today in each article? Would that be acceptable? - CelticCreationist 22:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)