Talk:Purgatory

So-called evidence shown to be lacking
The first quote is merely Matthew's version of the same story quoted from Luke in the third passage, which I will address momentarily.

The second quote is from the parable of the unforgiving servant, and the debt to be paid is beyond his capability: he will never get out of that prison. I think that proves too much for your case, if the penumbra of a parable is convincing at all.

There is really no reason to believe that Jesus is not talking about an earthly adversary, an earthly judge, and an earthly debt, and at least one good reason to believe that it is not allegorical: we do not settle our sin debt with Satan -- Christ "paid in full" at the cross. And even if He did not, then, as you yourself admit, our debt is to God, so while Satan can accuse us of falling short, it is not his debt to settle. So when Jesus tells us to settle with our adversary, he is not talking about Satan. And if the adversary is not Satan, then your whole argument falls apart.

But the Bible teaches that "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." . No mention in either passage of any post-death transitory state of punishment.

This is quite rich! Jesus says that no forgiveness will be available after death, and you interpret that to mean that there must be forgiveness after death. Do you also believe in baptism for the dead ?

This is a plain teaching; I do not see how you can twist it so. The test of fire occurs on the Day of Judgment, when "each one's work will become manifest". There is no time available or room in the text for any intermediate state other than "the Day" when we are judged.

The "spirits in prison" in your first quote are those "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah", not the righteous.

The second quote referred to some dead who had had the gospel preached to them. This does not show that they are being punished, so it does nothing to support your main point.

I absolutely agree. But since nothing in or near that verse (or any other mentioning the "book of life") says anything about purification occurring in some kind of "heaven's waiting room", there is no support here for the existence of Purgatory, either.

Furthermore, both Jesus and Paul taught that a Christian dead on Earth is alive with Christ, not suffering for unatoned sins: "Today you shall be with me in paradise,"  and "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ". The writer of Hebrews, likewise, tells us that we enter God's rest when we complete our works (i.e., in life), not when we complete our suffering (e.g., in Purgatory or in purification during life).

As to the church fathers you cite: I defer to them in matters that are unclear, but I don't let any leftover pagan superstitions they might have override the clear teachings of Scripture. In any case, Augustine's passage doesn't really show belief in Purgatory.

Thank you for reaffirming the absurdity of the doctrine of Purgatory. ~ "Webster" Otley (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2010 (PDT)


 * I am not sure why you have to use such language as "absurd".--Tony 11:42, 28 August 2010 (PDT)