Talk:Judaism

Please link all chapter and verse references to the specific passage on Biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/

i withdrew a link
I withdrew the link around "hebrew bible" and renamed it "Jewish Bible" because it was linked to the christian bible which has more books and is divided differently.

Amenyahu (25 April 2006)

My edits 25th April 2006
I have done some minor edits, correcting spelling mistakes and capitalisations. However, there is a chance that a few of them may not have been mistakes, but have been there for a reason. If AmenYahu or someone would like to review my changes and revert any that I got wrong, I would appreciate it. And while there, I noticed that "Sages and Rabbis" is capitalised in one spot and not in the next paragraph. Is there a reason for this inconsistency? If not, that is another correction that can be made. Philip J. Rayment 09:25, 25 April 2006 (GMT)

Your edits were fine
Thanks for letting me know. The edits were fine. Thanks for letting me know about the Sages and sages.

By the way, it's Amenyahu, not AmenYahu. No biggie, just a little note.

Amenyahu (26 April 2006)


 * Sorry, I made sure I had the spelling correct, and overlooked making sure that the capitalisation was correct.
 * Or a little "y"?
 * Philip J. Rayment 09:20, 26 April 2006 (GMT)
 * Or a little "y"?
 * Philip J. Rayment 09:20, 26 April 2006 (GMT)

Messiah
I find this sentence in the article: " However the Bible explains that his mother is going to be a virgin (Isaiah 7:14-15 ); "

I understand that this website is mainly written from a Christian viewpoint and this is how they interpret that passage, but in the interests of accuracy I really think this sentence should be removed. Judaism has no such doctrine that the mother of the messiah will be a virgin. No Jewish commentators interpret the passage in Isaiah as referring to the messiah and no Jewish scholars accept the translation of almah as "virgin." (Rather, it means "young woman.") The article as it stands is misleading in that the reader thinks this is a position of Judaism.

I didn't take the liberty of making the edit myself since I'm a newcomer here and wanted to explain everything.

MosheEmes 06:23, 24 April 2012 (PDT)


 * In my opinion, this is correct: Contemporary Judaism do not accept the translation of almah as "virgin". The word betulah is used instead. Christians accept this translation and understand that the Jews who translated the Septuagint also had this same vision (translating almah to partenos). However this is not the view of any of the sects of Judaism today. As this is an article about Judaism, I think the vision of Judaism is that it should be placed. Some Jewish texts talks about two Messiah: Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David. I would add at least two more Messiah claimants in the list: Shabbetai Zvi  and Jacob Joseph Frank. Luiz Alexandre Silva 13:06, 24 April 2012 (PDT)


 * I agree as well. In fact, not only is the translation of "virgin" in the Old Testament very questionable, but it is in the New Testament as well. I wrote a note criticizing Catholicism and mentioning my concerns about a Biblical basis for the Virgin Birth several months ago. With regard to the OT, almah is only used 7 times, as opposed to bethulah which is used frequently. In fact, almah appears to likely be a misspelling of almanah, meaning widow, as seen from Leviticus 26:14: "A widow <'almanah>, or a divorced woman, or profane , or an harlot , these shall he not take : but he shall take a virgin of his own people <`am> to wife <'ishshah>." It makes no sense for the writer to have intended the word virgin and then use a rare term like almah when bethulah is constantly used to refer to virgin. But if you look at the New Testament, the word "parthenos" also appears very questionable as meaning virgin. In fact, 1 Corinthians 7 is often misinterpreted as referring to virgins when a simple reading of the chapter shows the subject matter is actually the divorced/widows, and therefore it should've been written that Mary was a widow, not a virgin, in both the OT and NT. It's kind of silly this mistake has been getting made for so many centuries in translation as it's pretty obvious when you look at it. --Jzyehoshua 12:58, 26 April 2012 (PDT)
 * I just edited boldly and removed that virgin birth reference. Also, concerning Messianic Prophecies, I've always liked the Teaching Hearts chart, which even shows which ones are specifically Jewish as well. --Jzyehoshua 13:06, 26 April 2012 (PDT)


 * In my understanting, and in accordance with my faith, almah is well translated as parthenos. But I understand the fact that Judaism does not believe so. So, I think the sentence is not appropriate to the context of the article. The article should show the Jewish position only. Perhaps the Christian position could be written as a footnote. From what I studied, there is actually no term in Biblical Hebrew, neither almah nor bethulah, which means a woman with the intact hymen. And almah means a young woman of marriageable age, which most probably would be a virgin. The prophet, in my opinion, used the best term, to meet the present situation in Isaiah and recording a prophecy of a future event. At the same time. Luiz Alexandre Silva 13:13, 26 April 2012 (PDT)
 * Well, I agree that almah is well translated as parthenos. I just don't think either one means virgin, but that BOTH should've been translated widow, in both the OT and NT. Parthenos is used most often in the NT in 1 Corinthians 7, where a reading of the chapter shows it should've been translated widow, not virgin. I like to look at how a Hebrew or Greek word is used throughout the Bible to see what the translation should be when there's conflict. I use a program called PowerBible CD to do this, but it can be seen elsewhere as well, by clicking on the Bible books and going to Interlinear view at BibleStudyTools.com's pages.


 * This is the Interlinear for 1 Corinthians 7 that I am seeing. Verses like 5, 10-16, 27, and 39-40 clearly show the chapter is not talking about virgins but widows/divorced (specifically named in v. 8). Parthenos should've been translated widow, not virgin, by the KJV translators.


 * 1 Corinthians 7:1 ¶ Now  concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me : It is good for a man not  to touch a woman.
 * 2 Nevertheless , to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife , and let every woman have her own husband.
 * 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence : and  likewise also the wife unto the husband.
 * 4 The wife hath not  power of her own body, but the husband : and  likewise also the husband hath not  power of his own body , but the wife.
 * 5 Defraud ye not  one the other, except  it be with  consent for a time , that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer ; and come together again , that Satan  tempt you not for your incontinency.
 * 6 But  I speak this by permission, and not  of commandment.
 * 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself . But every man hath his proper gift of  God, one after this manner , and  another after that.
 * 8 I say therefore  to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
 * 9 But <de> if <ei> they cannot <ou> contain, let them marry : for it is better to marry than <e> to burn.
 * 10 ¶ And <de> unto the married I command, yet not <ou> I , but the Lord , Let not <me> the wife depart from her husband :
 * 11 But <de> and if she depart, let her remain unmarried , or <e> be reconciled to her husband : and let not <me> the husband put away his wife.
 * 12 But <de> to the rest speak I, not <ou> the Lord : If any brother hath a wife that believeth not , and she be pleased to dwell with him , let him not <me> put her away.
 * 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her , let her not <me> leave him.
 * 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by <en> the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by <en> the husband : else were your children unclean ; but <de> now are they holy.
 * 15 But <de> if <ei> the unbelieving depart, let him depart . A brother or <e> a sister is not <ou> under bondage in <en> such cases: but <de> God hath called us to <en> peace.
 * 16 For what knowest thou, O wife , whether <ei> thou shalt save thy husband ? or <e> how knowest thou , O man , whether <ei> thou shalt save thy wife ?
 * 17 ¶ But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one , so let him walk . And so ordain I in <en> all churches.
 * 18 Is any man called being circumcised ? let him not <me> become uncircumcised . Is any called in <en> uncircumcision ? let him not <me> be circumcised.
 * 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing , but the keeping of the commandments of God.
 * 20 Let every man abide in <en> the same calling wherein <en> he was called.
 * 21 Art thou called being a servant ? care not <me> for it : but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
 * 22 For he that is called in <en> the Lord, being a servant , is the Lord's freeman : likewise also he that is called , being free , is Christ's <Christos> servant.
 * 23 Ye are bought with a price ; be not <me> ye the servants of men.
 * 24 Brethren, let every man , wherein <en> he is called , therein <en> abide with God.
 * ¶ 25 Now <de> concerning virgins   I have no <ou> commandment of the Lord : yet <de> I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
 * 26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
 * 27 Art thou bound unto a wife ? seek not <me> to be loosed . Art thou loosed from a wife ? seek not <me> a wife.
 * 28 But <de> and if thou marry, thou hast not <ou> sinned ; and if a virgin   marry , she hath not <ou> sinned . Nevertheless <de> such shall have trouble in the flesh : but <de> I spare you.
 * 29 But <de> this I say, brethren , the time is short : it remaineth , that both they that have wives be <o> as though they had none <me>;
 * 30 And they that weep, as though they wept not <me>; and they that rejoice , as though they rejoiced not <me>; and they that buy , as though they possessed not <me>;
 * 31 And they that use this world, as not <me> abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
 * 32 But <de> I would have you without carefulness . He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to <ho> the Lord, how he may please the Lord :
 * 33 But <de> he that is married careth for the things that are <ho> of the world, how he may please his wife.
 * 34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin  . The unmarried woman careth for the things <ho> of the Lord, that she may be <o> holy both in body and in spirit : but <de> she that is married careth for the things <ho> of the world , how she may please her husband.
 * 35 And <de> this I speak for your own profit ; not <ou> that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely , and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
 * ¶ 36 But <de> if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin  , if she pass the flower of her age <o>, and need so require, let him do what he will , he sinneth not <ou>: let them marry.
 * 37 Nevertheless <de> he that standeth stedfast in <en> his heart, having no <me> necessity , but <de> hath power over his own will , and hath so decreed in <en> his heart that he will keep his virgin  , doeth well.
 * 38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well ; but <de> he that giveth her not <me> in marriage doeth better.
 * 39 ¶ The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth ; but <de> if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will ; only in <en> the Lord.
 * 40 But <de> she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment : and <de> I think also that I have the Spirit of God.


 * This is the passage Catholics use to decide on priestly celibacy too. Because they translated parthenos as virgin instead of widow, they not only concluded Mary was a virgin, per the Nicene Creed, but that priests should be celibate based on 1 Corinthians 7. I would argue both doctrines are unBiblical.


 * --Jzyehoshua 13:31, 26 April 2012 (PDT)


 * Revelation 14:4 is another area where the word parthenos is translated virgins but can't mean virgins as we think of them, because it says, "These are they which were not <ou> defiled with women ; for they are virgins . These are they which <ho> follow the Lamb whithersoever <an> he goeth . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb ." However, Biblically, marriage is "honourable in all, and the bed undefiled" (Hebrews 13:4) and "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." (Proverbs 18:22) The verse makes no sense if referring to virgins as it would be calling marriage "defil[ing] with women" which is not Biblical. It makes sense only if referring to those who are widowed and do not re-marry to focus on God in holiness per 1 Corinthians 7. --Jzyehoshua 13:46, 26 April 2012 (PDT)